Curse

Skyy High · May 10, 2008, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Seriously, that's just retarded. Monking (as well as other classes too I'd say) is a lot about feel and not actual numbers memorization. If I get an 80 point radar range LoD in PvE and a 65 point shout range in PvP, that's going to mess up my feel. Similarly, damage skills would work the same. From PvE experiences, I'd be expected to kill a target. But wait! The PvP version is different! Oops the target lived.

You have a point on the monking, but for the "whoops I thought I was supposed to kill him" argument is bulls***. Mobs in PvE have different health, regen, armor, and other resistances than standard human players; basing your spike build, or any other kind of damage build, on whether it kills mobs is just setting yourself up for failure if you try to directly port that to PvP, as the numbers will be different anyway.

kvndoom · May 10, 2008, 06:20 AM // 06:20

I have a feeling I'm going to be laughing at a lot of QQ threads in the future. And not in this forum, ironically.

There are 3 types, those who exclusively play one side, exclusively play the other side, or both. If you only PVP, it's not a bad thing. Maybe some of the broken shit will finally get fixed. If you play both sides of the game, it may indeed get very frustrating. "lrn2adapt" (I can't believe I've lowered myself to the level of typing that) may indeed carry more literal meaning than before. Sadly, most of what I've seen posted from PVE-only players is grand dreams of insane, continuous skill buffs to make something painfully easy even easier. In their perfect world, Ursan Blessing won't even be in the top 20 of the game's most powerful skills. I'm still trying to understand where the fun is when there's no challenge left.

But everyone seems to forget that it's still the same ol' Izzy doing skill balances... and we all know his track record with fixing / breaking skills. So um, careful what you ask for. It will make for good laughs though, when PVE nerfs come about and suddenly there's no one to point fingers at.

Izzy! Why hast thou forsaken me!

DreamWind · May 10, 2008, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

So... why is this being complained about? I thought this is exactly what everyone wanted, a way to stop PvE considerations from screwing up PvP balance?

It is being complained about because it is a poor concept to begin with. PvE has no balance. The idea of "PvE balance" is simply a way to appease the masses.

This is terrible for PvP because it promotes PvE players never moving to PvP in an already dying game. Not to mention, it stretches Anet out even more. Think about it...Anet has always had massive problems balancing just PvP. How are they going to balance PvP AND PvE and expect anybody with a brain to believe them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

The problem is that the PvE crowd wants to play with imbalanced crap and the PvP crowd doesn't because they wind up being on the receiving end of it too. Most MMOs figured this out a while ago with their PvP implementations, unfortunately Guild Wars didn't really figure it out until recently.

I'd question whether the PvE crowd actually wants balance.

They don't and you explained why perfectly. This isn't about balance...its about making the masses happy and crapping on everybody else.

Racthoh · May 10, 2008, 06:37 AM // 06:37

So... I can have my ectos back Div? Please really need.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

I don't want my Rodgort's Invocation to be silly and do 200 damage

Well that would be a good start to bringing it up to par with Splinter Weapon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I'd question whether the PvE crowd actually wants balance, considering the massive uproar every time builds that solo areas designed for 8 people are nerfed, and the repeated parroting of the "nerfs bad, buffs good" mentality.

We're talking about the same people who think Ursan Blessing is good for the game because it revived the cesspool affectionately referred to as PuGs and made 'elite' areas a walk in the park for bad players.

What's more confusing that anything is considering the past with dying nightmares, gear trick nerf, griffin removal, loot scaling, AoE fleeing, all of this junk that was put into the game that obviously was going to piss off PvErs... yet now the game is being dramatically altered to appease them. The crowd that would rather exploit dumb AI, get a monkey stuck on a door, thinks warriors can't do damage, basically the people who flat out fail at this game have the voice.

Riotgear · May 10, 2008, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

How are they going to balance PvP AND PvE and expect anybody with a brain to believe them?

They don't need to do much to balance PvE. The PvE crowd doesn't care what happens as long as they don't get nerfed, when nerfs are exactly what needs to happen to a few things to push PvP in the right direction. This is really the only way to do that without making them bitch.

Quote:

This isn't about balance...its about making the masses happy and crapping on everybody else.

Whether you like it or not, the majority gets more attention than the minority because that's where the money is. It's basic business sense and it's never going to change. The problem is that with PvE and PvP skills being identical, changes or lack of changes are going to piss one side or the other off. That's far from ideal.

Separating skill functionality makes it win-win, PvE players get to keep their gimmicks and PvP players get a balanced game.

DreamWind · May 10, 2008, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Whether you like it or not, the majority gets more attention than the minority because that's where the money is. It's basic business sense and it's never going to change.

This is the argument everybody uses, and of course its tough to disagree...

But the way I look at it is this...PvP was what Anet had going for them and made them unique. If they had followed up with it, they would have struck something none of us can even imagine at the moment. Instead we are stuck with a subpar PvE game that will try to be WoW when part 2 comes.

I guess if people call that a success...I can't argue with them. To me it is a failure though. A BIG missed opportunity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Separating skill functionality makes it win-win, PvE players get to keep their gimmicks and PvP players get a balanced game.

I'm not convinced that this is somehow going to magically make Anet more competent when it comes to balancing PvP.

Riotgear · May 10, 2008, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

What's more confusing that anything is considering the past with dying nightmares, gear trick nerf, griffin removal, loot scaling, AoE fleeing, all of this junk that was put into the game that obviously was going to piss off PvErs... yet now the game is being dramatically altered to appease them.

It's mainly PR. It's easier to justify a PvE nerf on PvE grounds than PvP grounds, because it puts anybody NOT abusing it in a better position over time. Ursan Blessing is probably going to get hammered in the near future for that very reason.

You probably wouldn't be happy if Shock got nerfed to a 30 second cooldown because of some ridiculous PvE farming build, right? To them, it's kind of the same idea, and it makes sense to a degree. This is why most MMOs separate PvP and PvE functionality, because people don't like their fun getting screwed up by people playing what is essentially a completely different game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

But the way I look at it is this...PvP was what Anet had going for them and made them unique.

Except the playerbase NOW has dwindled. This isn't about the mistakes made in the past, this is about what they need to do to go forward. The only way they're going to salvage PvP and make it have influence again is if they flatten the learning curve out and make a real advertising push on the gladiator's edition.

Since that's probably not happening, the next-best thing is to figure out a way to handle the balance changes without pissing off the vast majority of their current players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I'm not convinced that this is somehow going to magically make Anet more competent when it comes to balancing PvP.

It'll remove one obstacle to getting proper balance changes done. It can't make them worse, right?

Abedeus · May 10, 2008, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Why you are moaning? I mean, sure, PvE will be unbalanced. But it already is. Just instead of one stupid broken ass dumb Ursan, we will have few dozens of not-that-much-overpowered skills that require thinking. Imo that's lesser evil.

Burton2000 · May 10, 2008, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Sounds like a good idea to me. Allows anet to do big changes that they wouldn't of dared do before because of fear that the majority of guild wars players(pvers) would have a go at them. Only question is if they will or not.

Div · May 10, 2008, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

wouldn't a simple solution be to play a completely different profession in PvE then you normally do in PvP then? This way, it wouldn't mess up your feel too bad, no? I know, still a bit icky.... just shooting out ideas.

You raise a good point, and this was something I was just talking to Silmor about in guild chat. Before, you can literally use PvE as a training ground for PvP. I told a little story about how I first learned about projectile attacks from tundra giants in the droks run, and how I "cleverly" moved behind a rock to stop those attacks while blasting away with my ele's non-line-of-sight spells. Things like that don't happen anymore. Why would you need any sort of clever maneuver when you can c-space with SY or hit 1234 on recharge in ursan?

I guess what I'm getting at is that instead of using PvE to hone your skills (oh believe me, my monking actually improves by playing PvE), you have to avoid it to not lose your feel?

diff · May 10, 2008, 09:22 AM // 09:22

I think the skill separation is quite useful for passive defense skills: While these skills are bad for pvp, they are actually good for pve play, because they open up more possibilities besides the tanker/nuker or ursan play style.

Maybe it would be better and less confusing to just make those skills pve-only (so you cannot use them in pvp at all)

frojack · May 10, 2008, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

...PvP was what Anet had going for them and made them unique. If they had followed up with it, they would have struck something none of us can even imagine at the moment...

The PvE community has always been larger than the PvP. Even back in pre-factions (what many questionably consider the golden era of the pvp game), the PvE community was still more impressive in terms of numbers.

In terms of mileage, the game has done remarkably well, and is in prime position to be succeeded by a new game. The only potential problem now is the gap between them, as this is the time they will be hemorrhaging their total player base the most to other online experiences (despite being meh imo, the online component of GTA 4 is awesome etc...).

Despite all the f-ups the game has been quite resilient to player base max-exodus' when compared to other games. They can only continue to build on that. Why the game has been so compelling (ignoring the obvious cost difference for those who are more financially concerned) is obviously a combination of many things, however the most apparent is certainly the design. For example there is very little grind in this game, relatively. It's far easier to satisfy 'fashion fetish'. New armour, weapons, whatever.

While changes like this seem destructive, they are 2-fold in terms of experimentation of the successor and the renewal of the older game. There really is no negative element to the premise of this idea. They can only screw it up with implementation. Historically, this is what everyone should be worried about...

DutchSmurf · May 10, 2008, 10:23 AM // 10:23

After thinking about it for some time, I doubt it is going to fix anything. Instead of people complaining about skills being nerfed, they will now complain about skills being nerfed AND there being no PvP version of it. Since I really doubt they will introduce one for every skill they nerf. And if they do, the mess caused by that won't be pleasant either. So, knowing the forum community, I doubt anything good can come from this.

Pesi · May 10, 2008, 10:36 AM // 10:36

it all make sense to me, we people who pvp alot, shouldnt ruin the skills that aint overpowered to you in pve.

Most of all nerfs is to balance the pvp more, so nerf it for pve aswell has no point.

this is something the pve people would like..

-Pluto- · May 10, 2008, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemesis of God

Why you hate all what Anets does. Before this, players said: Make skills in PvE and PvP to be different.
Now players still complain, that pvE players/PvP players will be harder to suit to other style. Of course it is.

I was against separate skill sets from the start. People that wanted them just complained louder than those of us who didn't because, well, they weren't getting their way. People that like things the way they are usually don't feel as inclined to post.

Burst Cancel · May 10, 2008, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Success is measured by profit; there really isn't any other objective measure. The 'race to the bottom' in terms of game quality is an unfortunate side effect of hardcore players not having a proportional economic impact. Everyone pays the same amount for the game, so in terms of playerbase, companies are looking for quantity over quality. They're happy to take your money even if you're a shit-munching moron. In short, we've devolved into a tyranny of the majority - it's an Idiocracy.

The problem is endemic to all forms of entertainment, as someone pointed out to me over a year ago; really, the movie industry is Exhibit A in this sad history.

With this change, Anet seems to have resigned itself to the fact that most people will never play PvP. This can't be anything except abandoning the entire notion of "PvE is training for PvP, and PvP is the real endgame" that others have touted over the game's history. We'll see how many skills are actually affected, but in principle, at least, PvE and PvP really are separate games now.

I think ultimately, separating the two was a necessary choice. PvE is beyond hope - as a developer, you can't really promote quality and skill to the unwashed masses; they won't understand or appreciate what you're doing. PvE is the quest for shinies and bigger epeens - anything that gets you those things faster is a good thing, and anything that makes it harder or slower is a bad thing. There's absolutely no way you can craft a halfway decent game out of that sort of mentality, so why bother trying?

FengShuiDove · May 10, 2008, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

PvE HM monster: 3213213241 health, 3424 armor
PvP peron: 600HP, 60+AL

True. Which is the reason I simply run ENTIRELY different builds on the same profession in PvE and PvP. AoD + 5 attacks skills + Restful Breeze + Res against a mob of 20? Not very effective.

Monking in my opinion is all about response time anyway. Catching a spike, pre-prot, heal spike when appropriate. And conversely to what Illfated said, you ever been hit by Rodgort's in HM PvE? A liiiiiittle higher damage output than a PvP Ele no matter how many Elemental Attribute buffs the Ele has.

Again, I think it's a great idea. Most of the time I have a different build and therefore a different "feel" in PvE and PvP altogether. Not to mention, a different play style across every single different profession. Changing some skills like this creates one more striation. No worse than adding a new profession and in my opinion a smart move overall.

Burst Cancel · May 10, 2008, 02:28 PM // 14:28

The fact that you think monking is "all about response time" is pretty telling.

lactatemike · May 10, 2008, 02:30 PM // 14:30

The really bad thing about this is like the OP said, the people who whined so much to cause this just run UBWay anyways. . .

I almost exclusively play PvE, and through all the nerfs the game is still fun. It has become much more challenging since my old W/E days using Lava Font, but I like it more now. You actually have to think about a build instead of just pushing 4, 3, 2, 1. . .

I think the skills should stay the same for both, personally.

payne · May 10, 2008, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Fizzle

This update is either going to bring us to the depth of hell or its going to take us to the gates of heaven.

Yes I just said that.

and? I think your right...it is either going to kill PVE in the entirety...as PvE skills will now be over-powered making some vanqs...probably ni-lon impossible with skills like DA and loD being majorly buffed again...and will rodgorts or something being made to 200damage again...oO hell's HM will be fun!

so yer either its really going to improve PvE or just gonna screw it so bad everone will have to play PvP instead!